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Efficacy of Prayer » Recent Posts http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/ . . . does God listen to us? en Mon, 06 Sep 2010 13:37:01 +0000 Matt on "gah" http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/topic/gah#post-13 Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:58:30 +0000 Matt 13@http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/ boo Matt on "Is PZ Myers the AntiChrist?" http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/topic/is-pz-myers-the-antichrist#post-12 Thu, 04 Feb 2010 04:52:22 +0000 Matt 12@http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/ Mr. Ed <a href="http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/2010/01/pray4pz/#comment-10">commented</a>: <blockquote>I was just reading this article by Billy Graham about the Antichrist, and that he might be here on Earth already: <a href="http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100203/is-the-antichrist-here-on-earth-today/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100203/is-the-antichrist-here-on-earth-today/index.html</a> <blockquote>As the time approaches for Jesus' return, Satan will make one final, full-scale attempt to deceive the world and turn people away from Christ. </blockquote> Now, I know you're thinking I'm going to suggest that Obama is the Antichrist. While he has some sort of messiah complex, he doesn't try to turn people away from Jesus. PZ Myers, on the other hand, is working overtime to steer people away from Jesus. His followers treat him like a god, hanging on his every word! Heck, now he's trying to get his followers to <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/02/now_petition_obama_to_recogniz.php" rel="nofollow">convince Obama to create a day of worship for Darwin</a>!! So, do you really think that praying for the Antichrist will help? After all, he already KNOWS God is real, he's just trying to turn people FROM God!</blockquote> No, I don't think PZ Myers is the AntiChrist. Myers doesn't think he is God, or pretend he is. He says God isn't real. According to the same article you quoted: <blockquote>When he comes, the Antichrist will claim to be God -- but he also will deny the truth of Christ and oppose those who follow Him.</blockquote> I'll just assume you overlooked that part. Does anyone else think PZ Myers is the AntiChrist? Here's an online poll! <a href="http://answers.polldaddy.com/poll/2645264/" rel="nofollow">http://answers.polldaddy.com/poll/2645264/</a> Matt on "Do you believe God answers prayers?" http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/topic/do-you-believe-god-answers-prayers#post-11 Thu, 04 Feb 2010 00:27:30 +0000 Matt 11@http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/ You've joined this forum, so I assume you're interested in the subject of prayer. What do you believe on the subject? This is a secret poll. In the right-hand sidebar. ---> Matt on "Can PZ Myers be reasoned with?" http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/topic/can-pz-myers-be-reasoned-with#post-10 Thu, 04 Feb 2010 00:25:21 +0000 Matt 10@http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/ He's said in his blog that he would have to be convinced "by reason", not a baseball bat. I take that to mean he should be convinced by God presenting evidence to him which convinces him that God is real. He probably means that people should present evidence which convinces him God is real. I see no reason both can't happen . . . God can use a person (or maybe even this site!) to present the evidence to PZ Myers, instead of a dream or vision. In this section of the forum, please feel free to start your own threads not to ask whether Myers can be reasoned with, but to present or discuss evidence for God's existence. shirlee on "Two positive studies demonstrating efficacy of Christian prayer; one negative" http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/topic/two-positive-studies-demonstrating-efficacy-of-christian-prayer#post-9 Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:22:46 +0000 shirlee 9@http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/ That was kind of annoying. I had to log in over here (forum) when I'd already logged in over there (blog site). Might want to fix that. Anyway, I'm glad to see you presented these studies honestly, especially the point that only the studies where the people praying are born-again Christians showed prayer to work. That was a good catch that many people would have missed, because they think all people who call themselves "Christian" are the same. Maybe you really are looking for truth, and not trying to make people who believe in God and the power of prayer look foolish. Thank you. Matt on "Two positive studies demonstrating efficacy of Christian prayer; one negative" http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/topic/two-positive-studies-demonstrating-efficacy-of-christian-prayer#post-8 Tue, 02 Feb 2010 02:54:28 +0000 Matt 8@http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/ Prayer has mostly been studied in connection with medicine. It seems like a good combination; the improvement (or not) of a condition can be objectively measured. Brandeis University's <a href="http://www.brandeis.edu/departments/sociology/cadge.html">Wendy Cadge</a> is an assistant professor of sociology. She also writes for <a href="http://www.brandeis.edu/departments/sociology/cadge.html">ReligionDispatches.org</a>. She notes a series of studies. <blockquote>Between 1965 and 2006, about 75 researchers working in small teams published eighteen research articles in English language medical literature reporting on intercessory prayer studies.</blockquote> She links to two with positive outcomes: <blockquote>Intercessory prayer studies first gained broad media attention in the United States in 1988 when Dr. Robert Byrd published an article, “<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3393937">Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population</a>,” in the Southern Medical Journal. The study included 393 people admitted to the cardiac care unit at San Francisco General Hospital, half of whom were prayed for by born-again Christians who were active in local churches. Each intercessor was given the assigned patients’ names, diagnoses, and general conditions, and asked to pray for “rapid recovery” and for “prevention of complications and death.” After analyzing the data gathered, Byrd concluded that “intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God has a beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to the CCU [cardiac care unit].” Patients who were prayed for by born-again Christians they had never met, he argued, had better health outcomes than those who were not the subjects of prayer. A later study, “<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10547166">A Randomized Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit</a>,” led by William H. Harris and published in the Archives of Internal Medicine in 1999, claimed to confirm these positive findings.</blockquote> While Cadge notes that other studies had inconclusive or negative results, she only links to the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=1">Big Study</a>, released in 2006, which ran almost ten years and involved 1,800 people: <blockquote>Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found. And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested. </blockquote> The study method? <blockquote>The researchers asked the members of three congregations — St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City — to deliver the prayers, using the patients' first names and the first initials of their last names. The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications." Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not. </blockquote> How about the results? <blockquote>In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for — 59 percent — suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety. "It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said. The study also found that more patients in the uninformed prayer group — 18 percent — suffered major complications, like heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance. </blockquote> The study authors seem easily able to explain why people being prayed for had more complications, why people not being prayed for had more serious complications. But they add more reasons: <blockquote>the study could not overcome perhaps the largest obstacle to prayer study: the unknown amount of prayer each person received from friends, families, and congregations around the world who pray daily for the sick and dying.</blockquote> Reaction of "pray-ers"? <blockquote>Bob Barth, the spiritual director of Silent Unity, the Missouri prayer ministry, said the findings would not affect the ministry's mission. "A person of faith would say that this study is interesting," Mr. Barth said, "but we've been praying a long time and we've seen prayer work, we know it works, and the research on prayer and spirituality is just getting started."</blockquote> There is an interesting difference between this unsuccessful study and the successful studies, which many may jump at. Who did the praying? <a href="http://www.unity.org/aboutunity/index.html">Silent Unity</a> describes itself as: <blockquote>Unity is a positive, practical, progressive approach to Christianity based on the teachings of Jesus and the power of prayer. Unity honors the universal truths in all religions and respects each individual's right to choose a spiritual path.</blockquote> Not born-again Christian, but "interfaith". The <a href="http://web.me.com/carmbro/Site/Who_We_Are_.html">Teresian Carmelites</a>? <blockquote>We are a Carmelite community of consecrated men, women and lay members who live in allegiance to Jesus Christ. As sons and daughters of St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, we are faithful to the magisterial teachings of the Catholic Church. The call to prayer embraces our whole life, sustained by the Word of God and the Eucharistic Liturgy. We look to Mary, the Mother of God, as our model in the Christian life.</blockquote> Catholics. Not born-again Christians. <a href="http://www.stpaulsmonastery.org/1-about-us/history-of-monastery.html">St. Paul's Monastery</a>? <blockquote>Our Vision We, the sisters of St. Paul's Monastery, are a community who live the Rule of St. Benedict based on Gospel values. Through our liturgical life and wise stewardship, we create sacred space from which we respond to the needs and challenges of church and society.</blockquote> Catholics. Not born-again Christians. My point is not to say that born-again Christians have a line to God's ear while Catholics and "interfaith" sorts do not. I'm merely pointing out the difference between the studies. Matt on "Pray4PZ: The Experiment" http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/topic/pray4pz-the-experiment-1#post-7 Mon, 01 Feb 2010 04:31:25 +0000 Matt 7@http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/ PZ Myers is an associate professor of biology at the University of Minnesota. He’s better known for being an outspoken atheist. His popular blog is at <a href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/pharyngula">http://www.scienceblogs.com/pharyngula</a>; here, he and his readers share often-derogatory discussions about religion and Creationism. While PZ seems happy “Pharyngulating” polls — that is, sending his readers to sway results of polls with questions like, “Do You Believe in an Afterlife?” or “Is That Really Mary in the Sun?” — he stayed out of one. <blockquote>There was another poll out there that I studiously ignored, because I was on it: Which miracle do you think Americans would most support? One of the possible answers was “PZ Myers publicly converts from atheism to follow the One True God.”</blockquote> You can guess who won. While I found some of the poll responses more compelling, like “a miraculous display”, or “Stephen Hawking healed of his ALS”, I imagine that God responding to prayer by showing evidence of His existence to an outspoken and well-known atheist would be a convincing display. I don’t think the ladies hosting the “<a href="http://www.pray4healing.com">pray4healing.com</a>” site will be very successful; people seem to think their site is a gag. Probably because it started as “pray4trig”, which sure smacks of one. So, I’ve set up this section in the discussion forum, along with a page on the main EoP site. I’d like to see this little experiment happen, and will do what I can to help. I’ve even registered the domain name “<a href="http://www.pray4pz.com">Pray4PZ.com</a>” and directed it to the EoP. (Really, try it out!) I don’t have the “pray4healing” ladies’ buy-in yet. Easier to ask forgiveness than permission, they say! But as I’ve explained elsewhere, I’m not sure I believe God answers prayers, so I’m probably not the one to “git ‘er done”. Matt on "Free Will: Does it exist?" http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/topic/free-will-does-it-exist#post-5 Mon, 01 Feb 2010 03:26:41 +0000 Matt 5@http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/ Some say that God knowing everything you will ever do means that your actions are fate, not choice. Some say that your decisions are the result of your past experiences and biochemical reactions, and therefore likewise not choice. What do you think? Matt on "Theist - Atheist - Antitheist/Gnostic - Agnostic" http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/topic/theist-atheist-antitheistgnostic-agnostic#post-4 Mon, 01 Feb 2010 02:27:54 +0000 Matt 4@http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/ Some words are commonly used in ways that aren't consistent with their actual meanings. For example, it's common for people to think this is a continuum: Theist --> Agnostic --> Atheist This isn't the case. So, I'm going to take a moment here and lay it out: <ul><li>Theist: Actively believes in a god or gods.</li><li>Atheist: Does not actively believe in a god or gods. Indifferent to gods.</li><li>Antitheist: Actively believes there are no gods and also believes that belief in gods is harmful to individuals, politics, and/or cultures.</li></ul> The continuum, then, is: Theist --> Atheist --> Antitheist What about Agnostic? This is a different continuum. <ul><li>Gnostic: Believes we can know God (or gods).</li><li>Agnostic: Does not believe we can know God (or gods).</li></ul> So: Gnostic --> Agnostic Therefore, it is possible to be an "atheist agnostic". Such a person does not believe we can know God, and does not actively believe in any god(s). Where am I on these continua? Exploring. Where are you? JaneDoe on "Welcome to the Efficacy of Prayer Forum" http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/topic/welcome-to-the-efficacy-of-prayer-forum#post-3 Sun, 31 Jan 2010 05:01:50 +0000 JaneDoe 3@http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/ It worked for me! <img src="http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/bb-plugins/bb-smilies/default/icon_biggrin.gif" title=":D" class="bb_smilies" /> And so do the smileys! <img src="http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/bb-plugins/bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> Matt on "Welcome to the Efficacy of Prayer Forum" http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/topic/welcome-to-the-efficacy-of-prayer-forum#post-2 Sun, 31 Jan 2010 04:07:49 +0000 Matt 2@http://www.efficacyofprayer.com/forum/ bbPress is fully integrated with the main site (www.efficacyofprayer.com). That means that when you register there, you are automatically registered here. Due to a couple of bugs in bbPress, all registration links are presently redirected to the main site's registration page. If you lose your password, you must retrieve it through the main site's login page. There's not much here now . . . OK, there's NOTHING here now. I just finished setting this thing up. I only ask two things of you: Stay somehow related to the topic of discussion, and be respectful. That doesn't mean you have to agree with others, or their positions; it just means having civilized debate instead of name-calling. OK? I really hope that's not too much to ask. Spammers will, of course, be banned AND reported to stopforumspam.com. Please share the link to this site with your friends. If a particular thread is interesting to you, use the social media links at the bottom of the thread (or whatever other means excite you). Get the word out! The more participants we have, the more interesting conversations we can share!